Matt Dixon makes a compelling case in his book, The Effortless Experience, that the popular Net Promoter Score (NPS) is nowhere near as useful as it claims to be.
When Bain & Co. introduced the NPS score they called the question “Would you refer us to a friend” the “ultimate question”; the only one you need to determine customer satisfaction and, ultimately, profitability of a business.
Ironically, the very reason NPS became so wildly popular demonstrates that Customer Effort Score (CES) may in fact be more powerful. Executives love NPS because it is so easy. It is about as close as you can get to “effortless” when measuring customer satisfaction!
When Dixon and I discussed the differences between the two scores in today’s podcast interview, he said that NPS is important mainly because CEOs like it. They like it because it boils down the complexity of customer opinion to one simple rating question.But by now even Fred Reicheld, creator of the NPS, acknowledges that the one question isn’t enough.
(To learn more about NPS see Are You Making This Net Promoter Score (NPS) Mistake? and Time to Stop Worrying About Your Net Promoter Score (NPS)? ).
On its own, NPS doesn’t tell you anything about why visitors gave the rating they did. Also, by defining ranking scores as high as 8 out of 10 as “neutral”, it loses many customers who are satisfied, but not ecstatic. Until I studied customer satisfaction measurement and realized that staff could be penalized if I didn’t rank them a 9 or 10, I almost never gave that high a rating.
Which brings up another problem: guilt ratings. Even if I’m not satisfied with the outcome, I’ll now sometimes give that top ranking if I feel sorry for the staffer. It’s not the server’s fault that the food was late getting cooked and that it tasted awful.
And, of course, the question “Would you recommend us to a friend?” often gets a low score not because the customer was dissatisfied but because the person answering doesn’t think any of their friends would be interested in such a product or service. We heard that often at Web Mystery Shoppers, where we always asked our testers why they gave the rating they did.
Dixon did acknowledge that NPS can be helpful for getting a pulse on the overall brand perception, but warns users to “be careful of overinterpreting what you get out of it.”
He argues that Customer Effort score is more useful for judging true customer loyalty. And a 3rd measurement, the CSAT score is good for asking about about satisfaction with the outcome of a transaction, rather than the process. For some categories of products or services, researcher Tim Keiningham argues that Share of Wallet will give a more realistic assessment of purchase behavior (see Why The Net Promoter Score Is Overrated (& What You Should Measure Instead))
There Is No “Ultimate Question”
In other words there is no “ultimate question,” at least not that we can figure out yet. Customer satisfaction, and its future impact on profitability from repeat and referral business, is not simple to measure or predict reliably.
You can get some benefit from using all of these measurement tools. I would argue, however, that ultimately true insight comes from the qualitative answers about WHY people have given the scores they have.
Perhaps once artificial intelligence gets to the point where it is really good at analyzing open-ended responses, and is fed into big databases linking comments to sales figures and profitability, across industries, we may actually find an “ultimate question.”
But we’re not there yet, despite what many companies eager to play in the AI space are claiming. Stay tuned…
Also check out Part 2 of this interview, in which we discuss insight selling, the process advocated by Dixon in another of his popular books, The Challenger Sale. To be sure you don’t miss that part, sign up for the Frank Ideas newsletter (in the box below), so you’ll be notified as soon as each episode of the Frank Reactions Podcast on Customer Experience comes out.
Episode 118 – Does Customer Effort Score Trump Net Promoter Score?
Posted on 01/31/2018
[Transcription starts at 0:00:23]
TEMA: I am absolutely thrilled today to have Matthew Dixon as my guest. He really made me rethink some of my assumptions about customer experience when I read his book The Effortless Experience, which was backed by excellent research, so it made it kind of hard to argue with the findings. I know he’s also influenced a ton of business executives and entrepreneurs with his book The Challenger Sale, which he coauthored with Brent Adamson. Currently, Matthew is the global head of Salesforce Effectiveness Solutions at Korn Ferry Hay Group.
0:00:57 We ended up talking for a long time, so this is a two-part episode. I’m going to start with what was actually the second part of the interview when we talked about The Effortless Experience and some of the customer experience orthodoxy that he’s been challenging, like the notion that seamless omnichannel experience is the ideal we should all be striving for. He disagrees. Or, that businesses should all aim to delight all their customers. Again, he questions that. Then, in the next episode of Frank Reactions in two weeks, we’ll have the other part of the conversation, which was focused much more on sales strategies in the modern era and what he calls insight to selling.
0:01:38 Before we jump in, just a quick shout out to ATB Financial, who sponsored this and other podcasts in the Alberta Podcast Network. I’ve got to say, when I moved back to Alberta after an absence of 20 years–I had left for one that turned into 20–ATB was still a pretty bureaucratic, slowly moving, government organization. But, those days are long gone.
0:02:00 They’ve been trying out all sorts of forward-thinking things, including setting up their own crowdfunding platform called ATB BoostR. Anyone with a great idea and passion can apply to and raise funds on the platform. They’ve even got BoostR events where entrepreneurs can pitch their idea in front of a panel of judges to get extra funding, so pretty cool stuff.
0:02:24 Now, let’s jump into today’s interview, and I will talk with you briefly at the end.
[Interview starts at 0:02:32]
TEMA: Let’s move from the sales side to The Effortless Experience, which, for me, that really opened my thinking a lot when I read that book because you had a lot of very surprising data in there.
TEMA: You did make a point in there that this notion of trying to delight customers is perhaps overrated and, instead, you need to just make sure things run smoothly.
TEMA: You also said earlier in our conversation today that it’s hard for companies to come up with a distinctive, competitive advantage.
TEMA: Certainly, some companies, part of the appeal to that delight thing, even though it only applies to a few customers, is those stories then become legendary.
MATT: Yeah, that’s right. I think there is a need to kind of shake people almost by their lapels. I think the idea of saying, “Hey, don’t delight your customers,” is pretty similar.
MATT: What I mean by that is, what I would say is delighting customers, based on my experience and based on the research I’ve been a part of in the service organization, is a hard thing to scale.
MATT: It’s very expensive, and it often doesn’t generate the financial returns that companies hope it will in terms of greater levels of customer loyalty.
MATT: However, that doesn’t mean that companies shouldn’t be focused on delighting their customers. Companies obviously want to delight their customers, but they want to delight them in other ways. You want to delight them with a fantastic product experience, a great store experience, perhaps. Think about the Apple store, for instance.
TEMA: Although, the Apple store, I’ve got to say, I think is way overrated.
MATT: You know it’s a little bit crowded.
MATT: Especially when you try to get a cheap battery replacement.
TEMA: Yeah, exactly. Exactly.
MATT: A little frustrating, right? But, I think there are lots of other opportunities to delight the customer.
0:04:24 The other thing I would tell you is that, as many folks, I think, readers, careful readers of The Effortless Experience would come back and say is, “Okay.” Just like a reader of The Challenger Sale would say, “Okay. Got it. What you’re saying is that the currency of the relationship has changed. It’s not that we don’t need to have a good relationship with our clients.” Correct. That’s what we’re saying.
MATT: Careful readers of The Effortless Experience would conclude something similar, which is, “What you’re saying is the way to delight your customers is actually to make it easy and make sure that the service experience is actually easier and lower effort than what the client or what the customer anticipated when they picked up that phone to call, or when they clicked on your website to go try to get a resolution.
0:05:06 If you think about, for a moment, just at a personal level, I know when I’ve got to call a company for service, I’ve got to call the call center, or I’ve got to spend some time trolling through the FAQs on their website, my shoulders get really tight.
MATT: You know it’s a stressful experience. I know I’ve got a to-do list on my desk and I’ve got to call the gas company. I’ve got to call this retailer where I need to return something outside of the return date. I just know it’s not going to go well.
MATT: I know it’s going to be frustrating. I will look at that to-do list, and I will literally come up with other things to do because I don’t want to call those companies.
MATT: What’s delightful to me is when I have those experiences, and I go, “Huh. That was actually a lot less painful than I feared.”
MATT: I’ll give you a quick example. I love this story and I haven’t told it in a long time.
TEMA: Okay. Go ahead.
MATT: I used to have one of those pod coffeemakers, and my coffeemaker broke. Of course, it broke a week after warranty or something. It’s Murphy’s law. It just got all clogged up. It wouldn’t work anymore. It made like half the amount of coffee.
MATT: It was gross, and so I called up the manufacturer. I’m thinking, first of all, it’s going to be doubly problematic because I’m sure they’re not going to take pity on me and let me return it anyway. It turned out they did, and they were okay with it. They said, “Look. Yeah, it’s a week out of warranty, but it’s fine. We’ll give you an exception. You’re a new customer. We want you to have a great experience.” I was like, okay, that was great.
MATT: But, my bigger fear was that they were going to make me return this thing, which weighs like 25 pounds, and I don’t have the box anymore because I bought it a year ago.
TEMA: Of course. Yeah.
MATT: You know, and I don’t have the packaging. I don’t want to package it up. But, it was expensive enough that I probably was going to do that.
MATT: What was really interesting is, I got on the phone with them, and I said, “Okay, so I appreciate the fact that you’ll take it back. Thank you. How do I get this thing back to you? See, I don’t have the packaging,” and I kind of started going on and on.
What the rep said was, “Oh, actually, it’s a lot easier, Matt. There’s a little component. If you’re standing by your coffeemaker, I’ll show you how to remove it. It’s a little component that kind of acts as almost a key to the device.”
MATT: “Pull it out. You can stick it in an envelope and send it back to us.” She said, “We’re going to send you a new one right now.” She said, “As long as you send us back that little key to your previous device.”
MATT: “As long as we get that within the next month, we won’t charge you for the new device.” I was like, “Holy cow! This is amazing!” I was like, “What do I do with the old one?” She said, “Well, there’s a robust marketplace on eBay for used parts.”
MATT: It was so much easier than I anticipated. I just was dreading this call.
MATT: It ended up being so much easier. It was delightful in many respects. I think your point is a really good one that a lot of these stories, they’re legendary stories from Ritz Carlton, Four Seasons, and Nordstrom.
MATT: The old story about the person returning the set of snow tired.
TEMA: The tires. Yeah.
MATT: Yeah, or Zappos, right?
MATT: Disney, some of these legendary service companies. I think, for some companies, what they are selling actually is delight. And so, for those companies, I think it’s absolutely critical.
MATT: Yeah, Disney is a great example.
MATT: Or, you think about your high-end retailers and hospitality companies, especially. You go in, and you have Howard Johnsons or Red Roof Inn experience at a Ritz Carlton or a Four Seasons, boy, that’s very disappointing.
MATT: In many respects, you’re paying top dollar because you expect a delightful experience if anything goes wrong at the Four Seasons. And so, you want to be treated that way. But, I also think, for the rest of the world, yeah, those stories do become legend, but they do a couple things. One is, I think they inflate customer expectations in a way that customers now expect that they are as well going to be treated in that way.
MATT: Sometimes we struggle as companies to consistently deliver that. The other thing I found with delight is, when you ask your average frontline contact center rep, service representative, or retail staffer, “What does it mean to delight a customer?” you end up getting a lot of different answers. It’s all over the place, and it becomes a super subjective thing and very hard to internalize and very hard to scale.
0:09:24 Now, when you ask those folks, “What are the things that frustrate customers about who we are, what we do, what we sell our customers, the way we operate, and what could we do to make it easier?” what you find is a tremendous amount of consistency there. Everyone recognizes, “Oh, well, everyone hates that this product doesn’t work. It always breaks one week after warranty. Everyone hates the returns process. Everyone hates the checkout lines in the store.”
MATT: They’re very noble things, and you find there’s a lot of consensuses, I think, around that where you don’t find that same thing with those delight moments. Yeah, they make for great PR, but I think we have to ask ourselves, “Is it worth that, or would we rather be known for the company that does what it says and delivers an easy service experience?” because I would think truthfully, that’s a pretty differentiated place to stake out in the market because very few companies do it right now.
TEMA: Although, if I think about something like, say, a bank where it’s, essentially, certainly in Canada where we don’t have as much variety in banks as you do in the U.S., but it’s kind of commoditized.
TEMA: If the bank is doing its job well, you don’t think about it.
MATT: You don’t think about it. Yeah.
TEMA: Stuff works.
MATT: Right. [Laughter]
TEMA: Yeah. Then how can an organization like that differentiate itself?
MATT: Yeah, I think it’s a great question. I’ve been a part of some research, and you think about retail banking. I think, again, in those cases for the average bank they still want to focus on ease of the experience, whether that’s the ATM experience, the call center experience, the website experience. It’s still going to be focused on ease. Now, I think that banks, especially in Canada where there’s not as much choice, have a higher threshold for pain with the average customers.
MATT: …my bank, I would not say my bank is the easiest company to do business with, but they’re easy enough.
MATT: I’ve had frustrating experiences with them. While I, like every other customer, have threatened to take my business elsewhere, I never actually did it. There’s a big say/do gap because, the truth is, it’s a huge pain to switch banks, right? [Laughter]
TEMA: Yeah. Absolutely.
MATT: In places where you don’t have any choice, you think about utilities or things like that, then it’s just an empty threat anyway. But, even in banking, I’m like, gosh, this company. Yeah, they’re a pain, but they’re easy enough, and they’re getting better. I’ll give them credit for that. They’ve been slow to mobile apps and slow to do things that make my life easier, but they’re enough of a fast follower and, when things go wrong, it’s not horrible. I will wail and mash my teeth sometimes, but I won’t actually end up pulling up my tent stakes and going to another bank because it’s too difficult.
MATT: But I do think, in some of those businesses, what we see banks doing, we’ve all got banks and the threshold for leaving is very, very high. There are high switching costs for us as customers. Then it becomes very hard for banks to attract new customers, unless you’re talking about people who are opening up their first bank account.
MATT: Or, people moving to a new city or something like that. That’s a limited population. If you’re trying to steal customers away from other banks, that becomes really tough. What we found the leading banks are doing is they’re really thinking about how do we embed ourselves in the client’s life in new and powerful ways that help them accomplish key financial objectives, whether that’s saving more or spending less, or financial objectives like paying for university or buying a vacation home, saving for retirement, these kinds of things. The best banks are using design thinking approaches, and they’re coming up with new and very sticky products, which are creating that kind of word of mouth out there in the marketplace and in pulling in spend.
0:13:15 You know what’s an interesting thing that we found in the data is that your Internet savvy retail banking customers, the ones who are very plugged into social networks, and they’ve Internet consumers, these folks, it’s not that they leave their current banks for another supplier, but what they do is they don’t end up spending more with their current bank. They ended up spending more with other providers.
MATT: I’ll give you a quick example, even in my case. My bank was not great, but not so bad that I would leave, and is a little bit behind the curve in terms of innovation.
0:13:53 Well, I found an app called Digit. I don’t know if you’ve ever heard of Digit.
MATT: It’s a very cool app. It takes 30 seconds to sign up. Digit is this cool app. It runs in the background. You don’t even know it’s happening. It’s all text-based. I don’t even know. I think they have a website, but it’s only for registration. It’s all text-based. What Digit does is it siphons off a few dollars a week or a few dollars a day based on my account balances, and it uses AI to determine my spending habits, my account balances. When is a good time to, if you will, steal a few dollars from my bank account?
MATT: It basically pulls it into a savings account, which is … Digit.
TEMA: Oh, neat.
MATT: Digit makes money on that.
MATT: Although, now my bank is losing out on the opportunity. I could put that money in a certificate of deposit or a money market account, but I don’t.
MATT: Because it’s all happening in the background, and my bank doesn’t offer this. Then, every once in a while, I can text Digit. I just say, “Balance?” It comes back and says your savings balance is, you know, $3,000. I’m like, “Holy cow!” This has been going on in the background, and it’s like suddenly I’ve got the money to pay for a family vacation. It’s such a pleasant thing.
0:15:03 What Digit has figured out is this is just part of retail bank customer psychology that you will save more if it’s automatic, if it’s just happening in the background. It’s imperceptible to you. They created this and my bank didn’t, so I’m now giving them the money instead of giving it to my bank.
0:15:22 I think about those delightful experiences and how other players create those. That, to me, is a really delightful service. It’s super easy. It’s super low effort. That money is going out of my bank’s share of wallet to this other company because they’re offering it and my bank doesn’t.
TEMA: Well, and that comes very much to your notion of customer effort score. What you’re saying is that really is effortless.
MATT: It’s almost so effortless, I don’t even think about it. I set it up once. It was even more effort to me because I’m thinking about it for a moment now. I do have a money market account with my bank, and I could set up an automatic withdraw where it sent a few hundred dollars a month into my money market account. Even doing that was too much effort.
MATT: I like the idea that there’s this engine on the backend figuring out, okay, what times of year, maybe around the holidays, for instance, it’s going to take out less from my bank account.
MATT: I’ve got to buy gifts, and I’ve got things that I’ve got to finance. But, other times of the year it’s safer to take out more money and, regardless, is not going to go noticed by me. Then I’m going to have this really pleasant surprise six months down the road when I ask, “How much have I saved?” and I get this big savings balance that I can now put against a new car, a vacation, or something like that.
TEMA: Right. Nice. I think, yeah, that is a fantastic app. It probably doesn’t work in Canada yet.
MATT: [Laughter] Probably not. I’m sure there’s some equivalent there, though.
TEMA: Maybe. Maybe not. We’re a little slow on the uptake sometimes. [Laughter] But, certainly that’s an area where there’s a lot of change.
0:16:56 I’ve taken a lot of your time. I still wanted to just touch on a couple of questions that I wanted to ask you. The first one was, can you talk a little bit about what, in your research, you saw as the relationship between customer effort score and net promoter score, if any?
MATT: Yeah, there have been follow-on studies to that that other people have done. I think the way we’ve always told people to think about the relationship between effort and net promoter is, I think, at the highest level, the three most common metrics that we hear about are net promoter score, customer satisfaction, and increasingly customer effort score. I wouldn’t say customer effort score is as prevalent as the other two, of course.
0:17:41 But, the way I’ve told companies to think about it is that NPS is a great metric. It’s a great way to capture the customer’s overall perceptions of your company.
MATT: The problem with that is there are a lot of noise in there, right? There are some things that if you ask about an NPS score at the end of a contact center interaction, it may be that your customer, they had a really bad interaction, but they still give you a high NPS score. It may be that they had a great interaction, but still give you a low NPS score because the things they’re assessing you on had nothing to do with that.
MATT: It’s just such a big question.
MATT: But, because the CEO cares, because the CMO cares, it’s not worth having a religious debate, and it is important for overall kind of brand and loyalty tracking.
MATT: And so, we say, look, to a contact center leader we’ll say, you know, ask the NPS question because, first of all, it’s not worth the fight to say….
MATT: And, it’s valuable because it provides insight. Just be careful overinterpreting what you get out of it.
MATT: Now, what you also want to ask is the effort question, which is really more around the effort of the interaction itself. Now, effort is not a great way to assess overall brand loyalty. I think NPS does a better job of that. But, it is a much better metric to understand a transactional — the impact that a specific transaction, a service interaction has on a customer’s loyalty, and specifically really, as you know, from the book, really helps you understand the disloyalty we might be creating by giving customers or forcing them to go through high effort interactions.
MATT: We also recommend asking about CSAT, but most companies will ask about customer satisfaction about the interaction, about the call, or about the website visit. What we suggest is that you use it in a different way, that you ask about satisfaction with the outcome. Ask them about the satisfaction with the answer you got and with the resolution that was offered. Those three things together: NPS, the likelihood to recommend the company; effort of the interaction; and satisfaction with the answer you got or with the resolution that was offered. Those three together are very powerful.
0:19:41 statistically speaking, I’ll leave that to other people because there have been a lot of studies, I think, looking at the statistical relationship between CSAT, NPS, and CES, but I think, in a theoretical way, that’s kind of the explanation I would give people is that these things all do different jobs. There is no one question to ask. Even Fred Reichheld, who wrote a called The Ultimate Question, would tell you the same thing.
TEMA: Yeah. Right.
MATT: It’s that NPS is a fantastic question. It’s not the only question you should be asking for every single situation. I had a good conversation about customer reference score, and I think his perception was that this is a value add, especially around transactions that we know tend to create disloyalty, not loyalty, like a call center interaction.
0:20:23 Then the last question that I wanted to ask you, I had read–I don’t know if it was in the book or in a more recent article of yours–where you were talking about omnichannel experiences.
TEMA: You’d said that a seamless transition of a customer between resolution channels really only reduces customer effort by 5.3%, and it does it at a huge cost.
MATT: Yep. Yep.
TEMA: I mean I was surprised by that finding, and I’m wondering that. Obviously, ultimately, they want to get their problems solved, and so yes you will repeat your credit card number if you have to.
TEMA: I would think that that would have an impact and a bigger one on customer loyalty.
MATT: Yeah, I think it’s partly the reason the findings came out that way is, if I think back before apps were really prevalent, and you think about it in retail banking, as we were talking about before, it was hard to discern the differential impact of having that in a world in which we hadn’t been accustomed to expecting it. I think, in the world of omnichannel, except for a couple of companies who’ve really gotten omnichannel right, for the most part, the rest must talk about it, but really haven’t done it, at least not that seamless handoff that the vendors describe, right?
MATT: You can take the customer from SMS to the phone to the website and to email, and it’s completely integrated. That just doesn’t exist. I could think of a couple of companies who were doing that.
TEMA: Which ones? Who is doing it successfully?
MATT: Well, I think Amazon does a nice job of that.
TEMA: Yeah. Although I’ve got to say, their backend, certainly if you’re trying to sell things through Amazon, they are totally messed up.
MATT: Oh, yeah. Yeah, that’s different.
MATT: That’s a different ball of wax.
MATT: But, I do think, on the consumer side, on the buying side, on the B2C side, it is as omnichannel as I’ve seen.
MATT: There may be better examples out there, but that’s one of the best I’ve seen.
MATT: I think, for most companies, the cost of doing that is so high. We recommend; I’ve recommended to companies, be a fast follower on that one. Actually, what you should do instead is really try to figure out how do you do a better job steering your customers upfront to the right channel to resolve their issues because we’ve got so many channels.
0:22:46 I think, part of the reason that omnichannel even exists as a thing is because we’ve invested in so many different channels and they don’t speak to one another. As our phone has become our computer is also our SMS device is also our digital assistant now, you’re having this convergence of channels as well, even within the smartphone itself in the hand of the consumer.
0:23:09 I think there are a lot of forces driving this. There are a lot of reasons that we talk about omnichannel. I think companies, though, would be better positioned to be able to say, “Okay, what are the issues that our customers contact us about?”
MATT: Then, “Which are the channels we offer them?” whether that’s a website, a phone, chat, email, social service maybe, virtual assistance, whatever.
MATT: Everybody has a whole litany of channels they offer. Then let’s try to grade each of those channels on how good it is at solving each of those different customers. What you’ll find is some channels are good at solving some issues and they’re pretty bad at solving other issues. The reality is, most companies hide the ball on that. They don’t tell their customers.
MATT: What we’d be much better off doing is dividing our customers if they go to our website, that right up front there’s almost — when I think about that I may have this on the brain because we were watching Harry Potter the other night with our kids, but I think about the sorting hat. Do we do a good job sorting our customers, by issue, into different channels?
Right when you get to the website and you click on the support or the help tab, does it run you through a very simple kind of series of questions to understand what’s the nature of your issue? Then, does it tell you, “Okay, if this is your issue, pick up the phone and call.” “If this is your issue, here’s an expert community that’s going to have the answer.” “If this is your issue, here’s an FAQ that can actually answer your question.” And, “If this is your issue, I’ll fire up a chat window. We’ll get it taken care of.”
MATT: I think most companies don’t do that. There are a few companies that do a good job at that. Again, Amazon is a good example. Mastercard, I think, does a good job here. Cisco has done a good job in this area. But, most companies don’t, and they just don’t provide that guidance. And, if you do a better job guiding your customers and getting them into the channel that’s going to solve their issue and do a good job, then you kind of obviate the need for omnichannel.
0:25:02 Again, I think you’re delaying, probably, the inevitable because there will be a day and age when the cost comes down and enough companies are providing that seamless handoff that when you’re not doing it, you kind of feel like the sore thumb sticking up. You’re a negative outlier in the market. I just don’t think we’re there yet, and I don’t know that there’s a very clear financial benefit for companies to be early adopters because the cost is so high, and the returns are just not obvious right now.
TEMA: Right. Okay. Fair enough. We’ve really gone longer than I normally do. I appreciate the time you’ve given me. Is there anything you wish I had asked you that I have not?
MATT: Not off the top of my head. I will let you know, but I think we’ve covered a lot of ground here, and it’s been a pleasure to speak with you again. I know it’s been a number of years since we met, and it’s great to get back in touch with you and share some of these thoughts with your readers and your podcast listeners out there in the webisphere. Thank you for inviting me.
TEMA: Well, I hope that interview got you thinking through some of your assumptions just as it did for me. As I said at the beginning, we will have Part II of that interview with Matt Dixon in two weeks.
[0:28:45 end of audio file]